From gameplay to gamedev

/rfe add “Minimum/maximum level requirements” flag to objects.txt (eg in tomenet).

It would help to balance items and prevent a lot of scumming mechanics (passing powerful objects to low lvl players etc).

This flag could be optional, so there won’t be need to assign it for all existing equipment; just to add it where it really needed.

In comparisson to TomeNET, PWMA could have more advanced lvl assigning – to have also ‘maximum lvl reqs’ for items. It could be really useful to prevent high lvl players to scum low lvl dungeons for certain low lvl items. Eg ‘food’ which is an important resource @ AO; without such restriction high lvl players could just grind food in newbie dungeon which makes hunger system not so awesome as it could be.. One of my favorite ever moments in playing online roguelikes was where I thought that I’m out of food in IDDC and I had to eat all what I found to survive – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4lP2L_vHzc … this should be situation which players rarely get, it would give players a lot of fun. And if player want to avoid it – he still would be able to buy food from other players; but it should be rare to make it interesting.

Yet another addition to solve this problem is to have “maximum level requirements” parameter for dungeons in dungeons.txt; so player won’t be able to come in dungeons which got weakier monsters. Then it would be possible to prevent low lvl dungeons scumming at all. Also it would make rescue missions more interesting as players would have to rescue “equals”.. Without it most of rescue missions are quite boring – cause you come to the dungeon with high lvl char to rescue low lvl char in low lvl dungeon. Also it would motivate players to play together in parties.

No problem, no harm done. It’s cool to have freedom of speech and I hope it would stay the same at this wonderful forums. 

After all – we all wish good to Angband. There is no enemies, we all on one side, just have different vision on matters.

I’m sorry if my crude English language was offencive, I got two properties – hot temper and straightforwardness – which mixed together sometimes bring troubles. Sorry for that.

But still it’s fun to have this discussion, even if everything predetermined. We all let off steam a bit there, in this topic.. So we could move forward without hidden disrespect. It’s good that we ‘purged’ ourself, put all thougths and feelings to this basket.

I wish good luck with current Angband updates. I’ll still continue to play ‘old’ lore version of the game, but I would continue to look into new updates and would be glad to take new interesting monsters to my variant (or maybe Powerwyrm would include them to PWMA – as my variant is based at PWMA).

This discussion gave to me some new experience and knowledge, I hope that I’m not alone in this positive aquirement and this conversation gave some positive stuff (along with negative, there is no way to deny it) to the community.

Kind regards,
Tangar

The good thing about DnD and other tabletop fantasy RPG universes that they are truly ‘evolving’ – evolving in a good way, becomming richer. As Derakon said before about Moria vs Angband:

‘DnD’ (by this acronym in current discussion I mean not only DnD, but actually all pool of fantasy pen-and-paper role-playing games) also going this way, constantly. It provides more and more content! Each next edition (for example, classic DnD itself got already 5th editions) gives something new. And it’s fun to have new stuff, especially when it make sense!

Not all introducted in new table-top games editions stuff is good, but it’s Angband advantage – to choose what to take; some monsters could make Vanilla Angband lore better, more rich and exiting.

At the same time – Tolkien lore is STATIC. I’m sorry, guy, but Tolkien is dead. He won’t write new stuff and won’t ‘create’ new monsters. His universe is quite brilliant, but it was created long time ago, dozens of years before DnD appeared (not speaking about PC RPG games). Tolkien’s bestiary can not evolve, it’s ‘canonic’ and ‘Tolkien’s heritage’ protect his lore from any changes or ‘evolvement’ – which is pretty silly (as all attempts of copyright forces to restrain other peoples creative).

So while Vanilla Angband is open to new ‘DnD’ (and other pen-n-paper fantasy worlds) influence and take ideas from it – it’s great advantage. Restricting game to pure-Tolkien and wiping DnD stuff from it – not only removes 30 years flavour which everybody get used for, but also makes game more ‘STATIC’!. So when you speak about ‘evolving’ – it’s not evolving, guys, but a building a border; whats Nick doing:

1) wiping DnD stuff 
2) making pure-Tolkien border around what left in there

Yep, it’s new high fence around Angband lore. It’s like stuff which Saruman made to Isengard – from diverse beautiful land with trees – he put everything in ‘order’ by cutting trees down and made his land covered with similar grey stone – the same thing Nick is doing with Angand lore right now.

So despite of some opinions in this thread – I’m not after making Angband static – vice versa! But it should be enrichment, taking all the best from fantasy worlds; not restrictions by one universe. Of course, each new addition should be discussed – how it would fit into the present lore (so we won’t have rockets in Vanilla lol).

Vanilla Angband traditional lore – mixed Universe. It’s pretty special – with the ‘core’ of Tolkien (Nazguls, hobbits, Azog etc) and with RICH DnD flavour around it. And it’s fun to play with such game. It’s not boring as some other ‘pure’ Tolkien games and it’s evolving! Without DnD it would be boring static.

Angand Vanilla is: Tolkien ‘core’ enriched with proper DnD stuff. Dark elves, kobolds, gnomes and other old fellas – fits good in it, there is no need to wipe them!

This is yet another point to add to previous 9 points which in my ‘last word’. So now it’s now 10 reasons to save Vanilla Angband lore.

p.s.
I again wanna repeat quote from my first message in this thread:

There is a dramma at Angband oook forums. Nick (current Angband maintainer) are threatening to ban me for… disagreement with him 🙂 Great community managment, Nick!

Enough of what..? Enough of discussion and freedom of speach on Angband forums?

Of course they are. Nick, you’ve won this ‘dispute’ from the beginning. I said about it in several posts in this thread – I’m among minority and this discussion won’t change anything:

The goal of this discussion is to show that there are people who cares about Vanilla and it’s lore and to spread the truth, not to change your mind (it was clear from the beginning that it’s impossible).

Yep, I’ve read your answers and they sounds like ‘to mill the wind’. You just repeat your mantra. In my ‘last word‘ I said everything which I wanted and I become silent as I promised – because there was nothing to add.

And now, month past from my ‘last word’ and for that time more people came there, people who share my point of view and do not agree with you.. So now I have to say something again. And I hoped for constructive dialogue, but you and your adepts just want shut me up. Very good way of communication, sir.

This is a lie and you know it. I’ve answered to it there: http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showpos…0&postcount=38

Yep, krakens are from TomeNET, based at old Vanilla version which also got some more DnD monsters from other variants. And krakens should be at Angband, it’s not only mine POV. Devs should enrich game’s lore, not delete parts of it. But with your ‘tolkien’-purification I doubt krakens or other cool stuff would ever appear..

Considering kobolds: you are going to butcher them a bit later, together with gnomes:

What could I say. It’s very “productive” approach lol You are truly the community hero.. Some time ago, before you started the butchering I’ve left this message:

Quote:

Originally Posted by tangar  Nick, it’s great to see how you ‘observing’ & ‘scouting’ at different ‘battlefields’  I’m learning a lot from how you look at things, trying to be unaffected and to look from the point of view of the game itself, impersonal; and at the same time being open to community. Really cool approach for maintaining the project. Respect! // sorry for offtopic

Now I see that I was mistaken. It’s alright. Mistakes makes us stronger, we should learn stuff from them.. 

Oh, so nice words, thank you very much to make everything clear (about your personality) DD 

… But actually I shouldn’t use ‘DD’ smiles right now – it’s not funny, but pretty sad… Very disappointing (without sarcasm)..

Ok, lets take a look. Which reason to ban me? That I’m not worshipping you? Good point!

There wasn’t any effect. Actually there is no effect from anyone. You are doing what you planned long time ago, alone. You implement ‘minor’ stuff which other people suggest to you to have ‘visibility’ that you listen people. But really it doesn’t important to you, you have you own design (FFAngband -> Vanilla) and you follow it.

As I said in the beginning, > month ago:

I have a discussion in this thread only to show that there are still exist people who cares about Vanilla and it’s lore. And look – there are such people. Even among your ‘majority’ – there are a lot of “it’s sad that dark elves are gone”. Do you care about it? Nope – you have ‘a plan’ and made decision for all people long time ago: most of the community do not care about lore so it wasn’t really hard to implement your ‘idea’. And a few who cares – you do not care about them. You got the PLAN!

They won’t be considered only by you. Also after some time there would be another maintainer and I hope that your ‘lore’ changes would be reverted…

I still don’t understand why you want to ruin V-lore so much. You’ve created FAAngband – pure-Tolkien variant. Why not to continue work with it if you hate DnD lore? Why to mess Vanilla lore? 

You said that I got ‘remarkable display of arrogance’. But maybe it’s your problem? Nobody asked to touch Vanilla lore. You are famous for creating the most ‘heavy’-lore (FAAngand) variant and now bring your Tolkien obsession to V ‘for the greater good’, no matter what. Remarkable display of arrogance, I’ll say.

Ok, so you could read Takkaaria mind, apparently. Good job. But the thing is: 

At the end I wanna add that among this forum there are people that simply fear to have disagreement with you, Nick. I don’t wanna tell the names, cause it would be bad act on their privacy, but it’s old and respectable members of community. The name of this topic “Nick is going to butcher the game” is a quote from discord chat with one of them, it’s not my words (but I agree with them). This people say very harsh words about stuff you are doing with V (much more hursh then stuff I’m saying). But at this forum they do not critisize you. Why? Now I think I understand. I’m kinda ‘new’ at this forum, but this people are there for years and they knew you better, than I am. They wasn’t as naive as I am:

Quote:

Originally Posted by tangar  trying to be unaffected and to look from the point of view of the game itself, impersonal// sorry for offtopic

They knew that everything depends on you and if they would argue – you would ‘ban’ then / ignore their suggestions / won’t give access to development process, like you did it to me right now.

Now I see how stuff works there. At last. Thanks for an enlightenment.